December 18, 2017 - Council of the Whole

Council of the Whole Committee Meeting
December 18, 2017
6:00 PM

Members present: Mayor Schwab, Councilman Dale Fox, Councilman Dave Godwin, Councilman Chuck Hawk, Councilman Tom Hilliard, Councilman Paul Mackey, Councilman Steve Tharp, and Village Clerk – Treasurer Kris King.

Audience present: Cheryl Wade, Larry Gilkerson, Jim Mills, Kyle Hershey, Jeremy Henry, Randi Carpenter, Ray Heitger, Jacki Hickman, Tyler Carpenter, Roger Carpenter, and Donna Rovan of the Massillon Independent.

Clerk’s Note: This meeting is as close to verbatim as I could get it and keep in understandable.

This meeting was called to discuss a request for reimbursement in the amount of $10,329.14 for training at Stark State College by Jacki Hickman as presented by Chief Chris Colucy.

 Mayor Schwab advised Council of the different classes that Ms. Hickman has completed and the fact that she has already been reimbursed for her Firefighter Basic 36 Hour class at a cost of $499.66. He stated that on December 18^th, Chief Colucy had been advised he needed more documentation from Stark State College before anything else could be paid. The discussion was open to Council.

Councilman Tharp started by clarifying that he erroneously stated at the last meeting that the only class affected by the legislation requiring previous approval was the last class she took, when in actuality that class was also taken prior to passage of the legislation. He stated that it was not possible to get prior approval for the class once the class work has already been taken. He appreciates the Councilman that have reached out since the last meeting because at the end of the day we still need to take care of this issue. Councilman Tharp still feels very strongly that she would not have been able to meet the requirements for the prior approval. He stated the Mayor’s recommendation was to approve $2300 at the last meeting for the basic EMT course. Councilman Tharp feels that the entire amount of $10,329.14 should be reimbursed to Ms. Hickman. He also noted that there were two other firemen requesting training for their EMT courses and this shows that the lesson has been learned. That being said, Councilman Tharp feels that Ms. Hickman should get the entire amount of $10,329.14. He thinks that this is very unique and special to the Village of Brewster in the everyone benefits from the classes. He stated that this is not necessarily what makes people sign up, but it helps attract good people. It is the reason why a lot of people provide a lot of feedback about our people in the quality of the service they provide. He said as he stated at the last Council meeting, that during the entire three-year period that the Chief provided a spreadsheet showing all the calls she responded to, back through 2015 and the coursework for 2015 and those to which she has responded, have all benefited directly from the education she received from Stark State College.  It is no different than the education received from other firefighters like Roger Carpenter who also has been working full-time in the field in another community.  Both communities have benefited from the education. Everyone who has asked to be reimbursed over the years has been reimbursed.  The only thing that’s different with this request is that this request includes Firefighter 120 and 240. It is his understanding that the 240 is only for full time fire departments. Every penny we spend on this kind of training is absolutely worth it. He believes we will have a full-time fire department sometime down the road. He stated you have to ask yourself when you pay the money how much is going to pay out over the life of her service. Councilman Tharp stated that Ms. Hickman has been great, to sign a five-year agreement, which if you include three years of prior service, gives the village eight years of service. If she signs that document. No other person has given that much service for the training that she is asked to be reimbursed. He is just asking that Council consider the reimbursement. What Council decides today does not just have an effect on the finances today but there is something bigger beyond the small reimbursement. This has to do with the overall recruitment of new volunteers, this has a direct effect on the morale within the fire department, and it sets a precedent that says we only specific people are privileged enough to get reimbursed for their classes. When the current reimbursement ordinance was set up, it was his understanding that it was not to set up a limit on the amount of education a person can get. That’s the stupidest thing that we could possibly do. But rather, this is an investment in somebody who is somebody that is living in our community not some Joe blow that lives over in Timbuktu.  This is someone who is vested and lives right here in our community, that is responding, based on the calls that were provided by the Chief. He asked Council to keep an open mind on this and consider what you do and how it has long-term effects of the department.

Councilman Hawk stated he also thinks that we should consider paying her. He thought a lot about it since the last meeting and it does enhance our fire department. Not only do we have an extra paramedic to save lives, but the people she hangs around with, she can help too, because she has the knowledge to share. He talked to a nurse and she said the more educated people you have on an ambulance call, the better chance you have to save a life. For this amount of money, he as a Councilman, is considering approving it because he encourages others to do it.

Councilman Tharp asked Clerk King how much was left in the budget for training. Clerk King stated that the 2017 budget was finished and all bills have been paid. This would have to go into the 2018 budget and at this point $10,000 was being proposed in the Fire Fund and $10,000 in the EMS Fund for training. Councilman Tharp stated that his proposal of paying Ms. Hickman $2000 per year over the next five years would enable other firefighters to go to school to get an education. Clerk King stated the amounts are not set in stone at this point, budget meetings are being scheduled over the next two weeks.

Council Hilliard said he does not like this coming to Council because it is not our fault at all. We had a recommendation from the Mayor and when he makes a decision, it will be based on the Mayor’s recommendation. He will not sit here and go against what the Mayor was telling Council to do. Councilman Hilliard advised that the Mayor made a decision that he felt was best for the fire department. He would want the Mayor to change his recommendation because Council is not in charge of the Fire Department. The Mayor is the one who interviewed the Fire Chief applicants and hired the Fire Chief. Councilman Hilliard does not want to go against the Mayor’s recommendation. He wants to hear if the Mayor wants to change his mind.

Mayor Schwab advised of the approach he took when the Fire Department asked for a reimbursement of $10,000.  He said he would probably have to delay that until the fund had more money in their EMS account. Whenever he is asked to spend money, he looks to see if there is a need for it, in this case there is a need for additional paramedics because you never have too many. But the question is whether or not we can afford it, is the money available? We’ve had several meetings in the last year, that dealt with the shortfall in funds the EMS Fund and the Fire Fund. He feels this has to play into the consideration. He does not feel that we have the luxury to pay this at this time. That is why he is recommending to pay for the EMT basic. He feels that everyone on the Fire Department should have a minimum of the EMT basic because that helps save lives, not to downplay the paramedics who also save lives.  He also stated that we currently have seven paramedics. With that being said, he advised staying with his current recommendation of the $2,300 for the EMT training.

Councilman Hilliard asked Mayor Schwab how he felt about spreading it over the next five years. Mayor Schwab responded that that was Council’s call.

Councilman Hawk stated that’s why he wanted it divided up over the next five years. When you look at saving a life, $10,000 is not a lot of money. He feels that $2000 a year is something the Village can probably swing. Again, he stated the more education you get, better you are in any given situation.

Councilman Tharp stated it’s all about the process and everybody understanding the process.  We are now in a situation that is a little uncomfortable and he thinks tweaks should be made to the ordinance, getting a bill for $10,000 is obviously shocking. He recommends that something be put in place that limits the time someone can apply for reimbursement once a class has been completed. The Mayor stated the current approved legislation has a time limit of six months. Councilman Tharp asked if this was put in the ordinance because of Scott Borojevich’s reimbursement from several years ago. Mayor Schwab stated this ordinance was passed in September of this year. Mayor Schwab asked Chief Colucy if he was able to obtain the necessary paperwork. Chief Colucy stated he has the updated papers with the corrections. He stated Ms. Hickman had money in an account on the new paper that shows two Stark State refunds. That was money that was in an account that she had them apply to paramedic and fire which brings her up to $3112.  (This was one of the issues with the original paperwork, the expenses did not add up to the total provided.) This is everything that Stark State has provided to her and this is all computerized codes that they go through to add up to the correct figure for reimbursement.

Councilman Tharp wished to clarify that they’re speaking the same thing. Chief Colucy explained that the first bill given didn’t add up to the $3112 because it didn’t include the Stark State Plus Refund.  Ms. Hickman was able to get that corrected on this printout. Councilman Tharp ask if it was okay to open the floor for the audience. The floor was opened.

Chief Colucy stated the paper he showed Council was a list of the firefighters that have been trained and reimbursed by the Village. These are the people that Council has provided money to be reimbursed for their training. On the left side of the paper was John Huff, still currently with the department, then Sue Warstler, she was only with the fire department for eight months, when she left the Village, Council forgave her training costs because she made calls during the time she was on the department. Scott Borojevich who was paid for his training after he was off for seven years. Roger Carpenter and Randi Carpenter were both paid. Mr. Carpenter has the paperwork and a copy of the check that he received. Sam McConkey, who has passed away. Brandon Hewitt who got his training then bolted to South Carolina and used it to get a full-time job, that’s basically why you make people sign the agreement. Rick Young failed his paramedic twice which we paid for. And then Scott Gilkerson who is no longer on the department that works with Massillon Fire. Chief Colucy stated the financial breakdown that the Mayor has shows that Jacki went above and beyond to accommodate Council because the agreement she is willing to sign.  We are getting confused between the Paramedic Program and the Paramedics.  We have seven paramedics, they run volunteer calls between 6 PM and 6 AM. Jacki is one of those paramedics, she is not a part-time paramedic, she is a volunteer paramedic. Jacki has went above and beyond stating she will do a five-year deal, where the normal agreement pays you upfront fully and you have to stay on for three years and not break this into thirds. The five-year plan that Jacki is agreeing to is less burdensome to the Village. You have to have two EMTs on an ambulance to transfer a patient as the minimum. Chief Colucy went on to explain the difference between EMT and Paramedic training and what they can do on a call. He went on to explain how without the Volunteer Paramedics other departments would have to be called to assist in an ALS situation. The departments coming out to assist would charge the Village and the extra time for them to get to the patient, could be detrimental to the residents of our community. Chief Colucy went on to say that he has two more guys wanting to go to EMT training.  Because the cost is over thousand dollars, he has to bring it to Council. With the new legislation, anything over that thousand dollars will be brought to Council. He stated the levy money was more than he expected and the department has had less expenses this year. He thinks the Village can afford the $2000 a year over the next five years to pay for this training. If she’s still willing to agree to it. Chief Colucy stated that past practice has been, here is your money and they sign agreement. Councilman Hilliard stated to Chief Colucy, this wasn’t what they were wanting, the $10,000 paid over a five-year period. Chief Colucy stated that was correct because he knew they came with the $10,000 bill, that it would be approved and feasible with the five-year plan. Councilman Hilliard stated he agreed with Chief Colucy but this wasn’t Council’s fault, they had no idea about it. Chief Colucy stated he is not blaming Council, he did this the wrong way, he stated he turned paperwork in a while ago but didn’t push it because of the new ambulance purchase. Councilman Hilliard is not willing to throw out $10,000 then be short for others to get trained. Chief Colucy thinks that Ms. Hickman stating she will go out five-years is going above and beyond. Chief Colucy stated he admits he was wrong in the way he handled it and will not do it again. Councilman Hilliard stated he wishes he would understand that Council is working with numbers and there may come a day when we cannot afford this. Chief Colucy stated that’s obvious because of the way that the Association had to pay money towards the ambulance. He doesn’t think it would’ve been purchased without the Association’s input.

Councilman Mackey stated that members of Council have met on the fire department finances. They’ve all seen the numbers and in five years the Fire Department will basically be broke if they continue on the horse they are on. Somehow this village needs to accept fiscal responsibility for what they do. He doesn’t have a problem with the young lady getting all the training she can. He stated that what he would do if he was in her position would be to get all you can get. He has to agree with the Mayor. He’s the number guy. He didn’t do any research on this.  It is not his job.  He is to base his decision on the recommendations of those working on the Fire Department numbers. If the Mayor agrees on the $2300, he will vote for the $2300 and that’s as far as he will go. The whole thing was handled wrong, not his fault, not her fault by any stretch of the imagination. This money pouring out of the Fire Department is going to catch up with you sooner or later. “Somewhere somehow, this money pouring out of the Fire Department is going to catch up with you sooner or later.” Past practice has been to get prior approval. He agrees with the Mayor’s recommendation of $2300. Councilman Mackey stated that we have to be responsible with our budget, especially with the Fire Department.

Councilman Tharp fully agrees with that statement. He also feels we have to fulfill our word. The inferences that we make by allowing these trainings and reimbursements over the years, many of whom are no longer in service of this village. At the same time, we have to do what is responsible but that’s why spending $10,000 right now isn’t fiscally responsible. Managing it over a five-year period seems very manageable. Because all these folks out here in the audience have heard everything we’ve said, they know that there’s now an ordinance for the process, the Chief is now aware. Councilman Mackey stated there was a process in place prior to this written agreement. Councilman Tharp stated he agreed but…  Councilman Mackey stated you have to go by your ordinances, your resolutions, your past practices, you just can’t keep making excuses. The last time this happened, we were told it would never happen again. This was the last chance it was ever going to happen and here we are two years later, in the same soup. Councilman Mackey stated he is trying to be responsible. He originally felt it should not be reimbursed at all, but if the Mayor says the $2,300 is acceptable to him and the Village budget, he is okay with it. Councilman Tharp stated that all the decisions made at this table come with ramifications, consequences to those decisions that are made. The question becomes what do we allow, the Chief has freely admitted which is something that is hard to admit in front of an open body, I screwed up. Councilman Tharp gave him credit for doing that. And if we don’t approve this, we as a body are setting a precedent that we screw people. Councilman Tharp stated she went into this because he knows she has a passion for it. It kinds of runs in the family. And in 2015, we reimbursed Randi Hickman, Jay Lewis, David Wright, Kyle Hershey, Craig Daniels, and Greg Ryder and half of those people aren’t even active anymore for whatever reason. She continues her education and has already dedicated three years of service. He feels like honestly, what we’re saying is we want our folks, I don’t want to quantify this, and he doesn’t want the Mayor to take this the wrong way, he’s not saying that his recommendations are wrong, because Councilman Tharp thinks Mayor Schwab is looking at the numbers and trying to do the best with what we have. But having a higher standard is something that the Fire Department, I think, has always stood for. I have always stressed training no matter what, some have done well, some have done not so well. At the end of the day though, everybody has given their time and their service, if we want to have the Fire Department that we need, in order to continue and survive. If we have people constantly dying because we don’t have the appropriate educated people on our Fire Department then that’s a problem.  People look at our Fire Department and the quality people we get. We have those folks because we got a quality program for people. He knows that there were Council people that felt we could not give her the full $10,000 that he had suggested at the last meeting, but he feels this is a reasonable compromise that she has agreed to above and beyond what any person has been offered in the past. Above the three years that is been agreed upon in the past, but she is offering five, plus the three years she’s already given, that is eight years. If she had been someone who asked for $10,000 and then was someone that wasn’t showing up, I’d be looking at the Chief and saying it’s really hard for me to spend $10,000 on someone who doesn’t care. Councilman Mackey asked if Council has ever turned the Fire Department down for anything. We never turn the fire department down for basically anything they have ever asked. Councilman Tharp stated I don’t know, it’s been a lot of years. Chief Colucy said not that I’m aware of. You got to go with your past practices and you got to run an organization as an organization, not a club. You can’t personalize, you can’t emotionalize this. You have a business to run and you have a Fire Department that’s going broke. Councilman Tharp said be responsible, do what you have to do to get through the next five years. Councilman Tharp stated if we are going to have a discussion on where the problems truly are in the Fire Department, it’s not in the expense department, it’s in the revenue department. We need to do everything we can to increase the amount of money that goes into that department. We put a replacement levy in front of the people and they approved that. Now we are in a much better position than had we not done the replacement and he would also add that our Chief has gone to the Townships to ask them for more money. Which is really like the main issue. The expenses are down, we are receiving more money than anticipated. It is not unreasonable but there are still issues within the finances. This is no drop in the bucket by any means, but at the end of the day we have to meet our responsibilities to the people we serve. If we don’t provide the high level of service that everybody provides, then what are we doing. Those people expect a certain amount of service from these individuals. And the fact that we would have somebody educated as she, not to offend anybody who is here that has Basic Fire in the back of the ambulance taking care of me, who has something serious. Although any help is appreciated, I want the most educated person that there possibly is. That benefits everybody including you when they show up at your door. Councilmember Mackey stated all he’s saying is if you want a fire department in place in five years, you have to start looking at the numbers. Sure, we jockeyed around numbers, we passed a levy, but we’re still on track to go broke in five years and that’s the track that we are on right now, regardless of the budget, he has been harping about this for years. He has been harping about this for years and has not heard one sensible thing to get our nose above water. Every year it’s going down, down, down. Councilman Tharp stated we’re not addressing the real problem. The real problem is not training, it never has been.

Councilman Godwin stated that this has nothing to do with Ms. Hickman. He was told that there was no one else in training after Scott Borojevich’s reimbursement. She is stating that she was told she would be reimbursed and she was in training at the time of Scott Borojevich’s reimbursement. That is what this Chief said. Then he kept her training back there instead of bringing it forward as she went to training. Now the Chief comes back after all this time of saying there was no training and wants this reimbursement. That’s where this thing all falls. Chief Colucy said then punish me. Suspend me, do whatever you want to me. You guys are taking it out of the wrong person. This is a volunteer Fire Department, not a full-time, not a part-time department. I have come to you and said hard bill the residents. You want to raise money, hard bill them. If you want to put another levy on, put another levy on. Other Fire Departments around here do it. I bring it up (hard billing), but it still goes back to the fact that she goes and gets the training. He gets it that Council has never turned the firemen down for anything, he gets it. You would not have turned her down if he would have come and said she was going to get her paramedic, he guarantees it. She’s offered to do it over a five-year period, she’s making compromises. You got a retired Chief sitting here, he’ll tell you the same story. You don’t want to have firemen running around with basic training, you want them to advance. We need to get the part-time, we need to get the medics down here. We run after 6 PM. We ran 745 calls this year, that’s a lot and he can’t tell you how many are ALS and how many are BLS. The fact of the matter is, you got someone getting a higher education to do this thing. It’s a paramedic service that 77% of our calls are EMS calls. You should have the highest trained people possible.

Ms. Hickman is on the ambulance to save a life. Don’t take it out on her, it was handled wrong. I came to you about Scott Borojevich and honestly, I don’t remember what I told you two years ago. We paid Scott because Scott was off the department for seven years when he came back I came and asked for the money. I never thought it would pass but it did. Jackie went to the school and got me the paperwork and I presented to Council. I don’t think you guys should take it out on her because of the way I handled it. Come after me, for or whatever the case, don’t go after her and not pay it.  This is a volunteer fire department. We asked these guys to go to training and give up their time. Just like yesterday, we had a call and someone didn’t make it, EMTs can’t run the call. You have to have an ALS service, we are lucky enough that we have a part-time staff here 6-6. Otherwise we would have to the call for an assist. If we called any other department for ALS service, they would bill us for it. And that’s the issue that you have. The issue is that we are mad at Jacki for whatever the case may be…… Councilman Godwin broke in and stated that no one is mad at Jacki. Chief Colucy said he is not blaming Council, he puts the blame on himself. For her to go above and beyond on this, yes, it’s the Mayor’s recommendation but you know I think she’s bent over backwards to compromise. Now it’s up to you guys to approve or deny that. We have to look at a hard number, I have been asked what I need for the training budget but I honestly can’t answer that because I haven’t sat down and looked at it yet. We apply for grants and get a lot of the EMT paramedic training reimbursed. Much of the fire training doesn’t cost the Village any money other than meals and hotel stays. We can apply for certain classes to get reimbursed, we’ve done that in the past. Councilman Godwin asked how much money we’ve lost for the firefighter training for all the guys that have left. You have to do something about this. Chief Colucy said the Mayor is suggesting having everybody sign for any training they go to, I don’t have a problem with that. You got people Council, that complain about money but then you’ve got, I’ll bring up Sue Warstler, who worked eight months in Council said let the $4,000 walk because she made calls. Councilman Godwin stated that everyone keeps bringing up past practice, the past practice is what got us in the situation that were in now. We need to start doing something different. You can’t keep spinning your wheels on the same thing. Something’s got to change. The Mayor and Chief Colucy privately discussed a compromise. Chief Colucy said $2000 a year for the next five years is the compromise. This is the only other training he has and he’ll say tonight is for EMS except for CE’s, is two guys are going to EMT training which will cost about $3,000 total. There are possibly two others that are talking about going to paramedic training if they choose to do that. He doesn’t have a list of applications, of people knocking down the door, to join the Fire Department. We don’t have the luxury of that anymore, people don’t want to come do this job anymore. Councilman Godwin said that the County people don’t get reimbursed for anything. The Chief and Councilman Tharp said that was false. Councilman Godwin stated that was just what he was told.  Jim Mills stated that was not true. Everyone in this room has been paid for their training. Councilman Godwin stated I’m not talking about the Village. Jim Mills and Roger Carpenter argued with Councilman Godwin until Chief Colucy broke in. If you go to Canton, Perry, Massillon, you have one year to complete your paramedic training and you have one year to complete your fire training. Jackson pays you five days a week to sit in class and do your training, if you fail and don’t have it one year, you are terminated. All the full-time fire departments; Cleveland, Columbus, Akron and Barberton. Every full-time fire department pays wage loss for their training. Councilman Godwin asked about the EMT. Chief Colucy stated that it’s rolled into the paramedic, you don’t do EMT to become a Paramedic. Chief Colucy also explained how the fire training worked. The full-time department’s pay your wages five days a week for you to get your certifications.

Councilman Hilliard stated in the eight years he’s been sitting here, all he’s heard is really good things about the Fire Department. They are really the best. All he hears is that Roger Carpenter he did this or he did that. The only complaint he’s heard is that they wash your cars in front of the Fire Department. So, I told them to join the Fire Department then they can wash their cars too. Councilman Hilliard agrees with Councilman Hawk, give her $2,000 a year with a five-year contract, pay her the end of every year. I don’t think that should hurt too bad, you guys are hurting for money. We’ve been looking at the Fire Department figures over the last month.  There has to be some changes and some recommendations. We have an employee suggestion program now. You guys can go talk to Mr. Miller. You guys are going to have to make some compromises and we at the table, have to make some compromises. You have to look at getting more money. He thinks the reimbursement is reasonable. He stated that Chief Colucy should probably get a written reprimand, but is probably not going to do it again. Councilman Hawk related being a Fire Chief to being a Catholic priest, he’s a priest he’s not a businessman, the Fire Chief not a businessman. we have him wearing too many hats. We just have to remember what’s best for Brewster.  The training program within the Brewster Fire Department was discussed. The Chief is currently in charge of it. Councilman Godwin suggested giving it to one of his officers. Chief Colucy stated he did, they all quit. He gave it to Jon Huff, he gave it up, he gave it to Scott Borojevich and he gave it back.  He took it back over because the two gentlemen he gave it to gave it up. Councilman Hilliard stated he thinks this is fair to spread it (the reimbursement) out over five years, we would just have to keep looking at our money. Councilman Hawk stated he is glad we had the discussion as we needed it after the last meeting.

Mayor Schwab asked if there was anything else. Chief Colucy asked if they wanted to hear from retired Fire Chief Larry Gilkerson who was there. Mr. Gilkerson began with the Paramedic Program. The money that was coming in at that time made it self-sustaining. There has been some different changes since that time, different costs, spread around and that’s when it started having money problems. Something’s gotta be done as far as costs. The cheapest way we can do things is to let the people commit to be paramedics, this also gives them opportunities to be a full-time medic somewhere else. It’s a cheap way for us to go to get a three-year commitment. If we don’t do that, these people will be looking for jobs in other places. There is no way with what we have coming in here that we can support full-time people. We have trouble here with part-time. We need to come up with a way to come up with this small amount. If this is something that we can do to get the people in here to serve us, we should do it. One other comment, we didn’t fix the brakes for them (the two firefighters that got married), let me tell you the story. It’s (the truck) been here for 75 years. We had to have the brakes fixed, we had to take the truck to a neighboring festival, for support. It was unsafe. He stated we did not do that just for these young people to get married and ride around on the fire truck. It was only an incentive to get it done faster.

Meeting adjourned at 6:58 PM.

Respect fully submitted,

_____________________________
K. Kris King